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Graham Dumpleton
grahamd at dscpl.com.au
Fri Sep 3 14:22:09 EDT 2004
On 03/09/2004, at 9:57 AM, Jorey Bump wrote: > Michael C. Neel wrote: > >> So what do we want? So far it is an app that runs under mod_python, >> and >> should require a data store. If we are going to measure preformance, >> then the data store needs to be defined; otherwise the guy who uses >> dbm >> files is at a loss to the guy who uses MySQL. I think preformance is >> important, and also SQL interaction (after all, how many apps are you >> working on for customers using dbm files as the main data store?). >> Now, at the risk of getting the thread off topic and into a flame war, >> I'm going to say that we should state it uses MySQL and also provide >> the >> database as well. The app shouldn't need any advanced database >> features, this wouldn't be showing off the framework anyway. Also, if >> this gets some steam, someone might be able to convince sourceforge to >> host the results of the bake off, and they use MySQL. > > But some frameworks provide or use an alternative data store > (Karrigell, for one). > I know I'd be interested in how well these frameworks trade off > performance for > ease of use. If you try to host all examples on one site, you end up limiting the choices as to what developers can use in their implementation and make it difficult for them to update things. There may also be issues of one implementation interfering with another if there isn't somehow some proper separation between the applications. I feel, each developer wanting to provide an example, would need to be responsible for organising their own hosting. There should however be one site through which all the different implementations are linked. By each developer providing their own hosting, they then have the freedom of choice as to what tools they use. Regarding the HTML mock ups, look at CSS Zen Garden [http://www.csszengarden.com]. This is a site which is intended to show case how CSS can be used to make a site look quite differently purely based on changes in the CSS. Ie., the HTML is the same in each case. If CSS is going to be preferred over tables (which I whole heartedly agree with), then perhaps the HTML should be id tagged with CSS in mind. A very basic CSS could be supplied for layout and although someone is highly encouraged to provide something which presents the same HTML, they could customise the CSS all they like to give the site their own look and feel. If the HTML guidelines were followed, then developers may even be able to swap CSS files. I might also suggest that where you have the "CSS Zen Garden", we should call the comparison of mod_python tools the "ModPython Snake Pit". I think this could well be appropriate as their is very likely to be very little harmony and an awful lot of competition and disagreements in the way of doing things. :-) Now as to an example, maybe the provider of an example should first be required to provide an implementation that follows a prebuilt HTML mockup. Once they have provided this first implementation which can be used as a good comparison against other implementation methods, then they would be free to provide a second independent implementation which uses whatever HTML they like and which can add or remove features. This then gives someone a means of showcasing stuff in a way that may not be possible in the more constrained mockup implementation. Also, although a functional application would be the target, one might even say that a few basic demonstration pages, independent of any actual application also be provided. Ie., demonstration of basic dynamic pages, forms, login and session management etc. The basic examples therefore provide a means of comparing the different techniques without having to wade through a lot of application code. The application example then provides the means of showing how that all comes together within the context of an application. The basic examples would also need to be specified in advance as HTML mockups and descriptions of what needs to be shown. Anyway, while a specific candidate example is determined, this might be a good first step. Thus in summary: 1. Call the comparision the "ModPython Snake Pit". 2. People host their own examples with them all being linked from one site. 3. People provide reference implementation for basic demonstration examples of simple tasks. 4. People provide reference implementation for example application where same HTML mockup is used, but where CSS modifications are allowed. 5. People free to implement candidate example however they want, ie., HTML can be changed, page linkages can be changed, Javascript used etc etc. If this seems reasonable, while we think about an example for 3, how about a list of basic examples for 2. To get things going, how about: 1. Basic example of single page with dynamic data that changes on each read. Should show single values, repeating groups of data, optional data that is or is not shown based on time of day. 2. Basic example of an input form. 3. Basic example of a cookie. 4. Basic example of a login form with associated session management including session logout/timeout. There should be data preserved for the session between reads with the data stored in the application and not in the browser. Any other basic things that people are always asking to do where a demonstration of how it is achieved for all the different tools would be useful? -- Graham Dumpleton (grahamd at dscpl.com.au)
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