list at joreybump.com
Thu Sep 2 19:57:39 EDT 2004
Nick wrote: > On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 15:28, Jorey Bump wrote: > >> It seems appropriate to judge a webapp framework partly on the >> quality of the HTML it produces and the tools it provides to >> accomplish this. > > > Maybe, but why should the app developer have to come up with the > presentation? In this context, to show how well presentation is separated from logic. Perhaps it's best to impose a policy instead of providing a template. A real world example is declaring which version of HTML to use, require that it validates and that it displays correctly in a text browser. Then demand that it flows seamlessly within a site and provide a fake index page to use as a guide (and provide logo images and other resources, if desired). After that, give the developer the autonomy to create the interface. I work under these conditions all of the time. > The toolkit may be excellent, but the graphic design/UI skills of the > developer sub par. No doubt. By the same token, a snazzy presentation can't hide a broken application. Especially from us. :) > I think that all we're suggesting here is that mockups be provided, > and that the finished product reflect the mock up. I agree with that part, as long as it concerns general look and feel, which is a commonplace restriction for developers. I just don't think the form interface should be predefined in any way. Although it's not unusual for marketing to send over a nice graphical frontend with all of the text and form elements in place, I think that's a terrible way to design a webapp. > If you want the framework to generate all the HTML to showcase some > feature, more power to you. I write my own routines to output HTML directly in Python, so I *would* be interested if any of the frameworks in the bakeoff offer anything better. I'm more interested in reusable code than anything else, because it's the one thing that truly speeds up application development (isn't that what defines a framework, after all?). Code that generates HTML is a perfect demonstration of this concept. > Not all frameworks are designed for that > purpose, and a LOT of developers prefer the MVC model. Otherwise > there wouldn't be JSP in an otherwise fine Servlet/J2EE world. It's ironic that anyone would think that embedding code in an HTML page supports the separation of presentation from logic. It seems like more of an institutional concern (which is also important). I consider it a weakness of PHP, PSP, ASP, or JSP that the application code can become so easily obscured, and I'm not alone. I only mention this to support your statement that all frameworks are not the same, so why impose any one model on the bakeoff?